This scenario on the last move should be classed as a draw not a when they run out of time.
IE, if the player doesn't have enough material to physically make a checkmate or progress it should be a draw if the other player runs out of time.
Lichess goes with the rule that if a checkmate's possible (all the moves leading up to it are legal), it counts as a win, even if it would never happen from normal play.
Knight vs pawn is kind of tricky, but if black promotes to bishop and then puts the king on h8 and bishop on h7, it's easy enough (not forced - but that doesn't matter)
Knight vs pawn is kind of tricky, but if black promotes to bishop and then puts the king on h8 and bishop on h7, it's easy enough (not forced - but that doesn't matter)
Could we have some stats about how often "K+P vs K+N should be a draw" topics are posted? I've seen a lot of them lately.
The starting position may also turn out to be a draw with perfect play. In other words in order for the one side to win or "make progress" the other side needs to cooperate by committing mistakes. Exactly as your final position. Are you suggesting that if you time out in the starting position or any other position where no forced checkmate exists you should be awarded a draw???
And in the end who decides if in a given position there exists a forced checkmate or not? I hope you know that chess is not solved yet. So the only thing we can do is call it a draw only when checkmate is mathematically impossible which turns out to be easy to figure out. To be sincere there are some positions with pawn chains where a mate is mathematically impossible but still you won't be awarded with a draw if you time out in the current implementation. In this case it would make sense to complain for your draw.
I have seen this request coming up all the time. Please people tame your emotions for a moment and consider the sanity of your request before you publish it.
And in the end who decides if in a given position there exists a forced checkmate or not? I hope you know that chess is not solved yet. So the only thing we can do is call it a draw only when checkmate is mathematically impossible which turns out to be easy to figure out. To be sincere there are some positions with pawn chains where a mate is mathematically impossible but still you won't be awarded with a draw if you time out in the current implementation. In this case it would make sense to complain for your draw.
I have seen this request coming up all the time. Please people tame your emotions for a moment and consider the sanity of your request before you publish it.
The white side in this example can't physically checkmate black, so therefore it should be a draw maximum if black runs out of time.
K+N vs K should definitely be a draw too.
K+B vs K+P would have been better example for me to post because there are some extremely rare lines with the knight where you can actually checkmate if the pawn is in a certain place. (I forget the exact positions). I imagine it's harder to code the algorithm to class it as a draw.
But obviously in an OTB tournament it would always be ruled as a draw and that's without getting into the topic of opposite coloured bishops dancing in a dead draw. Or K+R vs K+R dancing around etc
K+N vs K should definitely be a draw too.
K+B vs K+P would have been better example for me to post because there are some extremely rare lines with the knight where you can actually checkmate if the pawn is in a certain place. (I forget the exact positions). I imagine it's harder to code the algorithm to class it as a draw.
But obviously in an OTB tournament it would always be ruled as a draw and that's without getting into the topic of opposite coloured bishops dancing in a dead draw. Or K+R vs K+R dancing around etc
Another one of these threads.
Checkmate is possible.
Go cry somewhere else.
/thread
Checkmate is possible.
Go cry somewhere else.
/thread
A realistic scenario, this happens often. There mates in #4 and so on.
and White wins by force.
This is exactly the counter-example you gave, thank you.
and White wins by force.
This is exactly the counter-example you gave, thank you.
@ShAlexander
Every good forum needs its running gag. ;)
Every good forum needs its running gag. ;)
"The white side in this example can't physically checkmate black, so therefore it should be a draw maximum if black runs out of time."
- Wrong: the white side can checkmate by a series of legal moves.
"K+N vs K should definitely be a draw too."
-Yes, it is.
"K+B vs K+P would have been better example for me to post because there are some extremely rare lines with the knight where you can actually checkmate if the pawn is in a certain place. (I forget the exact positions). I imagine it's harder to code the algorithm to class it as a draw."
- Wrong again. K+B can checkmate vs. K+P e.g. when the pawn promotes to a knight.
"But obviously in an OTB tournament it would always be ruled as a draw and that's without getting into the topic of opposite coloured bishops dancing in a dead draw. Or K+R vs K+R dancing around etc"
- Wrong again: also OTB with < 1 h/player/game it is a win if the player with time left on his clock can checkmate by a series of legal moves. Only at > 1 h/player/game you can claim a draw to the arbiter. The arbiter then usually orders to continue play and he awards the draw if to his discretion the other side makes no effort to win on the board.
- Wrong: the white side can checkmate by a series of legal moves.
"K+N vs K should definitely be a draw too."
-Yes, it is.
"K+B vs K+P would have been better example for me to post because there are some extremely rare lines with the knight where you can actually checkmate if the pawn is in a certain place. (I forget the exact positions). I imagine it's harder to code the algorithm to class it as a draw."
- Wrong again. K+B can checkmate vs. K+P e.g. when the pawn promotes to a knight.
"But obviously in an OTB tournament it would always be ruled as a draw and that's without getting into the topic of opposite coloured bishops dancing in a dead draw. Or K+R vs K+R dancing around etc"
- Wrong again: also OTB with < 1 h/player/game it is a win if the player with time left on his clock can checkmate by a series of legal moves. Only at > 1 h/player/game you can claim a draw to the arbiter. The arbiter then usually orders to continue play and he awards the draw if to his discretion the other side makes no effort to win on the board.
A blitz game of mine played 2012 on playchess:
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